China Flanker Thread II

[AssassinsMace]

Propaganda that contradicts. If you believe the Russian media, then the Chinese bought the 117 for the J-20. No need to buy the Su-35 in order to copy the engine since China already has it.

[MiG-29]

Propaganda that contradicts. If you believe the Russian media, then the Chinese bought the 117 for the J-20. No need to buy the Su-35 in order to copy the engine since China already has it.

the Russians say the J-20 has no 117S, however if the Chinese have troubles in their engine development, the 117 can fit the bill.

what engines the J-20 has? i do not know.


i ask you is there any J-11B that supercuises?

J-10B that supercruises? Russia has now two aircraft that supercruise and 3 engines of 14.5 tonnes or more of thrust.


Like i said in the begining, if China has a 117 type engine yes you are right buying Su-35 does not make sense

but if they have troubles with their supercruising engine, buying a　few SU-35 will make sense, but Russia wants money, they want at least 50 Su-35 for 100 117 engines.

Could the 117S speed the design of WS-15 probably yes, but who knows

[Engineer]

Look this is not a competition, niether you are the PLAAF, your opinions as all of us are just opinions.

I am not the RuAF, niether you the PLAAF, niether i am interfax or you shenyang.


Your opinions are like mine, we are just saying why we do think Russia might sell Su-35 to China or not.


The future is always uncertain, unless you claim to be a prophet.


If it happens as reported in several media news outlets, well is understandable.

If it does not, Sukhoi still will sell Su-35s to the RuAF and other customers.

I do not care if you think TVC nozzles are worthed or not, if Su-35 can fill its task well or not.


The situation is the most advanced Flanker in the world you like it or not you believe it or not still is Russian, and its the Su-35 powered by 117S.

J-11B and J-16 are still good aircraft, but are less advanced and iimpressive in performance and very likely radar too.

It does not matter whether you think Su-35 is the most advanced Flanker or not. It does not even matter if Sukhoi thinks Su-35 is the most advanced Flanker or not. The aircraft is not the most advanced fighter, and China has little needs for such aircraft when domestic products are superior.

You keep on bringing up 117S engine, because you think China wants this engine and that would be enough reason to purchase the Su-35. However, you cannot be more wrong. China has already switch to the domestic WS-10A, and would no longer uses Russian engines for its new built Flankers.

You should keep in mind that J-11 variants lose consistently in exercises against J-10. Improvements made to the J-11 will only bring the aircraft on par with J-10. In other words, if China needs an aircraft better than the J-11B, they can simply buy more J-10s. Then there is J-10B which is close to being introduced to service, and this aircraft has further improvement in performance over that of existing J-10s. Thus even when we disregard J-20, China already has better alternatives than Su-35.

Like it or not, China has little needs for the Su-35 other than to disassemble the plane to satisfy curiosity. The reality which you need to realize is China is not going to buy any Su-35. Another fact you need to realize is that no country, including China, has brought any Su-35. At the end of the day, the only opinion that matters is the one that result in a decision to buy the aircraft. So far, such opinion remains non-existence. Your opinion of Su-35 superiority is completely irrelevant.

[Engineer]

barking to who? can you be a little more polite, my argument was at least up to what i know the most advanced flankers in the world are Su-34 and Su-35, and since China has not shown a 117 engine type is probable they want to buy the 117 engine but since China stopped the Su-27/J-11 license and Russia felt it was against its interests the Russians are only willing to sell 117 in large numbers and in Su-35s because if China would use it to in 5-10 years copy it Russia my lose markets to Chinese aircraft.

Everything is business, Russia today has more powerful engines than 117S, they want to milk out all the money the can from Su-35 and 117S, simply like that bussiness

Reverse engineering requires solid technological foundation, and is not something that any country can do. If a country can copy something as sophisticated as a turbofan engine, that country already has enough technological capability to design and build one just as good. The fact that Russia fears China could reverse-engineer the Su-35 and its subsystems so easily is an evidence showing China is already as good as Russia in terms of military aviation.

[drunkmunky]

It's clear that China doesn't want to continue feeding russian aviation business because it has enough development capability to construct on its own. There is no reason for China to purchase the 117 unless they fail at developing the ws-15.

It doesn't make sense for China to wait for the 117 while you have stated that the Russian Air force is attempting to update its own fleet with new engines. That just means that China will witness extensive delays for the 117, if they actually wanted it.

The ws-10 is the indication that China is trying to divorce itself from the dependence on Russian engines. The ws-15 will become an even more clear indication of this. Whether or not the new AL-31's, 42's etc. have more thrust or not, China isn't interested in Russian Flankers period. Russian military equipment no longer serves a purpose or meets the ideals of the PLAAF. China doesn't want to do business, and you should know that by now.

barking to who? can you be a little more polite, my argument was at least up to what i know the most advanced flankers in the world are Su-34 and Su-35, and since China has not shown a 117 engine type is probable they want to buy the 117 engine but since China stopped the Su-27/J-11 license and Russia felt it was against its interests the Russians are only willing to sell 117 in large numbers and in Su-35s because if China would use it to in 5-10 years copy it Russia my lose markets to Chinese aircraft.

Everything is business, Russia today has more powerful engines than 117S, they want to milk out all the money the can from Su-35 and 117S, simply like that bussiness

[drunkmunky]

the Russians say the J-20 has no 117S, however if the Chinese have troubles in their engine development, the 117 can fit the build.

i ask you is there any J-11B that supercuises?
J-10B that supercruises? Russia has now two aircraft that supercruise and 3 engines of 14.5 tonnes or more of thrust.

The united states only has the f-22 raptor that can supercruise. The f-35 cannot atm. this doesn't really mean that the f-35 is less advanced than russian counterparts/fighters.

The technical development of china is behind, but to be a fool in thinking that china is not developing 5-10 times faster than other countries is a foolhearted mistake.

A supercruise tvc 4.5 gen flanker is great. especially for the russians i'm sure. but it doesn't meet the demands of the PLAAF. So it's really irrelevant.

[rhino123]

Actually irregardless of whether the Su-35, 34, and whatever is good or not. First, China and many countries in the world is transiting to Stealth aircraft like the J-20 and T-50(yes, the Russian too). And those countries who wanted the Su-35 for whatever reason, might still find the price abit too high (and yes, price played a role for many countries).

I do not doubt that the Russian Super Flankers are capable aircraft, but from the poor sales experienced thus far, was an indication that maybe it no longer play an very important role. And yes, although none of China's aircrafts at present have TVC or supercruise, but from what I gather thus far, the Chinese are not showing interest, it might be because of various reasons,

1) J-20 coming up, so there really is no need to get the super flankers at present moment, if it was 10 or even 5 years ago, then there might be a reason to buy these birds.
2) China had huge number of Su-27/ J-11/ J-11B in their arsenal, there really is no need to get a new variant into their arsenal just because an aircraft seemed superior on paper.
3) China might be reducing the number of fighter type in her arsenal, no point having huge number of different type of fighters (although many of them will be in the flankers family) - imagine the headache in logistic
4) Russia's flankers are not compatible to Chinese weaponries, so no matter how good, it would be for nought, because if the Chinese cannot use their own missiles and stuff, there really is no point getting these armament.

As for why Indonesia get the F-16 instead of the Su-35... it is also not because of Su-35 was not good or what, it might simply be because, the F-16 is cheaper (I am not sure on this one though), or that the ultimate aim for the Indonesian was that they wanted the F-35, but that dream cannot come true if they keep flying Russian products.

As for India... well, they might not want the Su-35 because their Su-30mki is good enough for them and they ultimately wanted the T-50 or its equivalent, so there really is no need for another variant of the flankers.

So if you look at it this way... the Su-35 might came out at the wrong time, a couple of years before, and it would be selling well.

[Engineer]

the Russians say the J-20 has no 117S, however if the Chinese have troubles in their engine development, the 117 can fit the build.

what engines the J-20 has i do not know.


i ask you is there any J-11B that supercuises?

J-10B that supercruises? Russia has now two aircraft that supercruise and 3 engines of 14.5 tonnes or more of thrust.


Like i said in the begining, if China has a 117 type engine yes you are right buying Su-35 does not make sense

but if they have troubles with their supercruising engine, buying a　few SU-35 will make sense, but Russia wants money, they want at least 50 Su-35 for 100 117 engines.

Could the 117S speed the design of WS-15 probably yes, but who knows

The fact that China is not buying the Su-35 would be a pretty clear indication that China does not require the 117S engine. If China wants more advanced engines from Russia, there would have been some orders already. Yet, all the orders remain to be baseline AL-31F variants. The fact is 117S engine would serve little purpose for China other than to satisfy curiosity. Su-35 itself has no value for China whatsoever. If Russia truly expects China to buy 50 items of no value for 100 engines that are little of values, then some people in Russia must be thinking too highly of themselves. Such close mind thinking will only serve to further limit Russia's snail pace progress in aviation.

[Hyperwarp]

the Russians say the J-20 has no 117S, however if the Chinese have troubles in their engine development, the 117 can fit the build.

what engines the J-20 has i do not know.


i ask you is there any J-11B that supercuises?

J-10B that supercruises? Russia has now two aircraft that supercruise and 3 engines of 14.5 tonnes or more of thrust.


Like i said in the begining, if China has a 117 type engine yes you are right buying Su-35 does not make sense

but if they have troubles with their supercruising engine, buying a　few SU-35 will make sense, but Russia wants money, they want at least 50 Su-35 for 100 117 engines.

Could the 117S speed the design of WS-15 probably yes, but who knows

Why would CAC want and engine from NPO Saturn? Maybe SAC but I don't see how CAC would need any. CAC has been dealing with MMPP Salut for a long time. Even the J-20 engine is rumored to be a AL-31 variant from Salut but much higher thrust (14,000 kgf) and they'll continue to use them until WS-15 is ready.

I honestly don't see why CAC would need NPO Saturn when they already have a close relationship with MMPP Salut.

[MiG-29]

It's clear that China doesn't want to continue feeding russian aviation business because it has enough development capability to construct on its own. There is no reason for China to purchase the 117 unless they fail at developing the ws-15.

It doesn't make sense for China to wait for the 117 while you have stated that the Russian Air force is attempting to update its own fleet with new engines. That just means that China will witness extensive delays for the 117, if they actually wanted it.

The ws-10 is the indication that China is trying to divorce itself from the dependence on Russian engines. The ws-15 will become an even more clear indication of this. Whether or not the new AL-31's, 42's etc. have more thrust or not, China isn't interested in Russian Flankers period. Russian military equipment no longer serves a purpose or meets the ideals of the PLAAF. China doesn't want to do business, and you should know that by now.

too much boasting little proof


October 3, 2011, 4:45 AM
China has placed additional orders for Russian AL-31-series fighter engines
One is for more than 150 AL-31Fs as replacements for earlier engines of same type that power the Su-27/Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters, that are designated J-11 in China. Engines under this contract will be assembled by the Ufa-based UMPO factory

The second contract is for more than 120 AL-31FN engines to power newly built Chengdu J-10 fighters. Engines under this contract are already being delivered, from the Moscow-based Salut plantBig New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines | Aviation International News


independence means you export engines not you import them.


China is still dependant in engines from Russia for J-10 and J-11, if the WS-15 is in design i believe it but how advanced i do not know how far is it

[drunkmunky]

too much boasting little proof
China has placed additional orders for Russian AL-31-series fighter engines
One is for more than 150 AL-31Fs as replacements for earlier engines of same type that power the Su-27/Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters, that are designated J-11 in China. Engines under this contract will be assembled by the Ufa-based UMPO factory

independence means you export engines not you import them.

China is still dependant in engines from Russia for J-10 and J-11, if the WS-15 is in design i believe it but how advanced i do not know how far is it

I said in my own post that China is 'trying' to rid it's dependence on Saturn engines. I didn't say they were independent. Why post the same post you had several pages ago. We have hundreds of flankers with worn out AL-31's because of their poor service life. It makes logical sense just to purchase more as replacements until we can replace the entire fleet. We all know Russia has increased it's AL-31 production by one third since last year to meet the demands of China, Taiwan, India. We have almost twice the number of active flankers as the Russian air force.

Boasting is talking with excessive pride. If you think i'm boasting? then you're barking. What part of China doesn't want Russian components is based on pride. It's based on logistics and as you said, 'business'. We don't want to copy or use you Russian AL-31's anymore. The design is more than 30 years old *original design without revisions*

The fact that ws-10 engines are in service already show signs of some Chinese engine independence. I would say that it is just as impressive that China has developed a lot of the fighter chassis to transition from AL-31 powerplants and into the WS-10 without major downtime.

The engine development of the 10, 13, and 15 has been slow to ensure reliability. The sole problem we are having is the turbine blades. We don't have access to FM1's because they are only for the Russian Air Force. I can agree with you that Russian Engine development is more advanced than the Chinese, but that is only one component of the Equation.

Chinese flankers, with engagement of composite materials, revised construction methodology and improved avonics is on par, if not better than Russian flankers, regardless of engine thrust.

Looking back at the historical stance of the Russian Air Force vs. U.S. Air force. Russia has always utilized the flanker as an air superiority fighter. Massive thrust and maneuverability built specifically for Dog fighting scenarios utilizing traditional control and command. The U.S. air force circumvented this strategy by developing advanced avionics with a strike first, invisible bird scenario.

China's future competitor will not be Russia, but it will be the U.S. Chinese Flankers must be developed with advanced Avionics and reduced RCS. Engine thrust is only relevant if they were to survive the U.S. first strike scenario, and with the WS-10/AL-31 combination, the capability of the Chinese flanker is on par with the power of the F-15 and even the revised F-18SH.

So the Chinese flanker uses it's own Avionics and fire control system.
They developed their own 'improved' fighter chassis
They developed the plane for all of their own weapons.
We have some Ws-10's on birds but not enough.

If that isn't a clear sign to you that China wants to rid itself on its dependence of Russian Engines, I don't know what is. Regardless of the fact that you mentioned newer AL-31 engines have greater thrust, performance capability, it is clear, and most definitely noted in the media, that China is already moving at a fast rate along it's OWN course.

[MiG-29]

I said in my own post that China is 'trying' to rid it's dependence on Saturn engines. I didn't say they were independent. Why post the same post you had several pages ago. We have hundreds of flankers with worn out AL-31's because of their poor service life. It makes logical sense just to purchase more as replacements until we can replace the entire fleet. We all know Russia has increased it's AL-31 production by one third since last year to meet the demands of China, Taiwan, India. We have almost twice the number of active flankers as the Russian air force.

Boasting is talking with excessive pride. If you think i'm boasting? then you're barking. What part of China doesn't want Russian components is based on pride. It's based on logistics and as you said, 'business'. We don't want to copy or use you Russian AL-31's anymore. The design is more than 30 years old *original design without revisions*

The fact that ws-10 engines are in service already show signs of some Chinese engine independence. I would say that it is just as impressive that China has developed a lot of the fighter chassis to transition from AL-31 powerplants and into the WS-10 without major downtime.

The engine development of the 10, 13, and 15 has been slow to ensure reliability. The sole problem we are having is the turbine blades. We don't have access to FM1's because they are only for the Russian Air Force. I can agree with you that Russian Engine development is more advanced than the Chinese, but that is only one component of the Equation.

Chinese flankers, with engagement of composite materials, revised construction methodology and improved avonics is on par, if not better than Russian flankers, regardless of engine thrust.

Looking back at the historical stance of the Russian Air Force vs. U.S. Air force. Russia has always utilized the flanker as an air superiority fighter. Massive thrust and maneuverability built specifically for Dog fighting scenarios utilizing traditional control and command. The U.S. air force circumvented this strategy by developing advanced avionics with a strike first, invisible bird scenario.

China's future competitor will not be Russia, but it will be the U.S. Chinese Flankers must be developed with advanced Avionics and reduced RCS. Engine thrust is only relevant if they were to survive the U.S. first strike scenario, and with the WS-10/AL-31 combination, the capability of the Chinese flanker is on par with the power of the F-15 and even the revised F-18SH.

So the Chinese flanker uses it's own Avionics and fire control system.
They developed their own 'improved' fighter chassis
They developed the plane for all of their own weapons.
We have some Ws-10's on birds but not enough.

If that isn't a clear sign to you that China wants to rid itself on its dependence of Russian Engines, I don't know what is. Regardless of the fact that you mentioned newer AL-31 engines have greater thrust, performance capability, it is clear, and most definitely noted in the media, that China is already moving at a fast rate along it's OWN course.

Look, we are just two guys saying our opinions.


in your opinion you claim chinese flanker airframes are even better than Russian made Flankers.


That is just an opinion, only that and of course an opinion not shared by Sukhoi.


i do not know if you cared to read the link that says

, самолет получил новое крыло, новую систему управления, новый двигатель с увеличенной тягой и поворотным вектором тяги


Радиолокационная заметность истребителя по сравнению с самолетами четвертого поколения, уменьшена в несколько раз.


ГоÑ�ударÑ�твенные Ñ�овмеÑ�тные иÑ�пытаниÑ� Ñ�амолета Су-35 идут в Ñ�оответÑ�твии Ñ� графиком : Министерство о&#1

this says the Su-35 has a new wing, this detail you won`t see it if you do not read the link plus also says it has a reduced RCS





Во время полета умная автоматика имитирует другие цели и создает помехи, делая самолет невидимым.. Это станции помех индивидуальной и групповой защиты для самолётов типа Су-30. Эти станции мы поставляем вместе с самолётами КБ "Сухого" в страны всего мира
http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=343076

this talk about new materials used and equipment to aid Russian aircraft to reduce RCS.
I would not say it makes it more invisible than Chinese Flankers or it does not, but only Russia has not stopped improving the airframes and your assertion the J-11B has a more advanced airframe well it is your opinion but unless you can work for the Kaluga Research Institute of Radio Engineering and Shengyang you will know the true.

[Engineer]

too much boasting little proof

What a perfect description of the current state of Russian aerospace industry. It's all talks and little proof. All we hear are claims about how Su-35 is superior and every country including China wants one, yet not a single country has brought one.

October 3, 2011, 4:45 AM
China has placed additional orders for Russian AL-31-series fighter engines
One is for more than 150 AL-31Fs as replacements for earlier engines of same type that power the Su-27/Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters, that are designated J-11 in China. Engines under this contract will be assembled by the Ufa-based UMPO factory

The second contract is for more than 120 AL-31FN engines to power newly built Chengdu J-10 fighters. Engines under this contract are already being delivered, from the Moscow-based Salut plantBig New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines | Aviation International News


independence means you export engines not you import them.


China is still dependant in engines from Russia for J-10 and J-11, if the WS-15 is in design i believe it but how advanced i do not know how far is it

Wrong. Independence means the country is capable of designing and building an engine from start to finish. China is perfectly capable of doing so, evident by the existence of WS-10A and WS-15. The US for instance imports engines from Rolls Royce which is not an American company, yet no one would dare to claim US does not have independence in engine manufacturing. Your fairy tale, driven by pure fantasy, is silly as usual.

The major reason to purchase AL-31F is the well known short lifespan of the engines driven by quality issues. None of the AL-31F will be used on J-11B. Likewise, many of the AL-31FN are going to use for similar purpose while some will go into new J-10A, but WS-10A is about to take over as J-10's powerplant with the introduction of J-10B.

Without Russia, China is perfectly capable of manufacturing AL-31 itself. China is already producing parts for AL-31 to extend the life its engines.

In mid-2010 a Chinese television program revealed that the “5791 Plant” under the air force had succeeded in increasing the life span for AL-31 engines from 900 to 1,500 hours, a factor of 1.6.

[Engineer]

Look, we are just two guys saying our opinions.


in your opinion you claim chinese flanker airframes are even better than Russian made Flankers.


That is just an opinion, only that and of course an opinion not shared by Sukhoi.


i do not know if you cared to read the link that says

, самолет получил новое крыло, новую систему управления, новый двигатель с увеличенной тягой и поворотным вектором тяги


Радиолокационная заметность истребителя по сравнению с самолетами четвертого поколения, уменьшена в несколько раз.


ГоÑ�ударÑ�твенные Ñ�овмеÑ�тные иÑ�пытаниÑ� Ñ�амолета Су-35 идут в Ñ�оответÑ�твии Ñ� графиком : Министерство о&#1

this says the Su-35 has a new wing, this detail you won`t see it if you do not read the link plus also says it has a reduced RCS





Во время полета умная автоматика имитирует другие цели и создает помехи, делая самолет невидимым.. Это станции помех индивидуальной и групповой защиты для самолётов типа Су-30. Эти станции мы поставляем вместе с самолётами КБ "Сухого" в страны всего мира
Âåñòè.Ru: "Ñóõîé"-íåâèäèìêà

this talk about new materials used and equipment to aid Russian aircraft to reduce RCS.
I would not say it makes it more invisible than Chinese Flankers or it does not, but only Russia has not stopped improving the airframes and your assertion the J-11B has a more advanced airframe well it is your opinion but unless you can work for the Kaluga Research Institute of Radio Engineering and Shengyang you will know the true.

That's the typical self-centric talk from Russia military fanboys. Making improvements to the airframe with new materials and reduction of RCS are hardly something to boast about. Shenyang does not have the best reputation in China, yet the company long made the same improvements to J-11 variants.

Redesigned air inlets of engine intakes to reduce the radar cross section, this coupled with the adoption of composite material, and application of radar absorbent material has reduced the radar cross section (RCS) of 15 square meters of Su-27SK to just >3 square meters of J-11B.

This article provides even more detailed descriptions of the improvements on J-11B:

Although based on the Su-27SK, the latest incarnation has substantial improvements including a reduced radar cross-section (RCS), strengthened airframe and an improved fire control radar as well as new flight control system, glass cockpit and engine.

Additionally, the empty weight of the aircraft has been reduced by about 700 kg through the use of composite materials.

The J-11 AL-31F engine will be replaced with the WS10A turbofan, providing longer lifespan and reduced fuel consumption.

Claiming Sukhoi did something that a Chinese company with poor reputation have already done is not a proof that Russia is ahead. It only illustrates Russia is being overtaken.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Who cares if Su-35 is superior to J-11B/J-16? Su-35 represents the best of the best for Russian aerospace, J-11B/J-16 are really 2nd string for the PLAAF and have never had the premier fighter role. Flankers have never received much love or resources in China, they are just a cost-effective workhorse that are tossed in after the J-10s and J-20s (in the future) have done most of the A2A work.