China Flanker Thread II

[tphuang]

The time China purchase fighter is over long time ago, Chinese J-11B is way better than SU-35

Have you heard about all the stories of J-11B regiments getting their butt kicked by J-10A and J-11A regiments this past year? It's not just a matter of better aircraft, but PLAAF has to learn to use them. From that perspective, I really don't see any reason China would want to get Su-35 at this point. They can produce more and more advanced variants of flankers if they so desire. They have to properly train the pilots to make good use of them first.

[plawolf]

Have you heard about all the stories of J-11B regiments getting their butt kicked by J-10A and J-11A regiments this past year? It's not just a matter of better aircraft, but PLAAF has to learn to use them. From that perspective, I really don't see any reason China would want to get Su-35 at this point. They can produce more and more advanced variants of flankers if they so desire. They have to properly train the pilots to make good use of them first.

Well it's still PLAAF pilots who are kicking the J11B's butt, so obviously someone in the PLAAF has been training their pilots ok for them to be able to kick the butt of the newest fighters with what should have been outclassed equipment.

Maybe the result is down to some issue with the regiment that equipped J11Bs (although that seems unlikely since they are getting the new birds first because they have a track record of being a strong and capable regiment, so the pilots should be of a high enough quality and be experienced enough to not disgrace themselves even if they were just flying J11As), or it could just be a case of the pilots not yet being fully familiar with their new birds at the time of the exercise. I think the latter is more likely, as I already said, the pilots equipped with J11Bs would have been quite capable in their own right before the re-equipping as they would never have gotten the new jets first if they were getting their butts kicked in all the exercises beforehand.

When you consider the improvements in the avionics of the J11B compared to the J11A, it would not be hard to see how someone who learnt to fight in the J11A might struggle a little with all the new equipment, concepts and workload of the new plane.

In a fight, the person who knows his bird implicitly and do not even have to think about the mechanics of performing actions and only need to decide what he wants to do will have a massive advantage over someone who needs to both actively concentrate to remember how to make his plane do certain things as well as having to decide what he wants his plane to do.

I am inclined to give the J11B and their pilots the benefit of the doubt for now, but will obviously revise my position if the J11B performs badly in subsequence exercises consistently as well. But hopefully it won't come to that, and this drubbing might just give the J11B pilots the kick up the butt they need to really focus their minds onto the task of fully mastering their new birds so that they can show everyone what the J11Bs can do next time.

[Lion]

How do they gauge good pilot for PLAAF in the past? As long as you are a good dogfight pilot , you are a good pilot.

But comes to modern age with BVR, ECM and datalink. This so called good old time top pilot might not be the best for the new tatics.
They still stick to their old time dogfight tatics, trying to get near foes and do the close fight.

Clearly, many of the J-11B top pilot maybe transit from J-7G which they still retain the old doctrine. The lack of efficiency of usage of their ECM clearly demonstrated that. Before they get near J-10A, they already got shot down.

[Air Force Brat]

Well it's still PLAAF pilots who are kicking the J11B's butt, so obviously someone in the PLAAF has been training their pilots ok for them to be able to kick the butt of the newest fighters with what should have been outclassed equipment.

Maybe the result is down to some issue with the regiment that equipped J11Bs (although that seems unlikely since they are getting the new birds first because they have a track record of being a strong and capable regiment, so the pilots should be of a high enough quality and be experienced enough to not disgrace themselves even if they were just flying J11As), or it could just be a case of the pilots not yet being fully familiar with their new birds at the time of the exercise. I think the latter is more likely, as I already said, the pilots equipped with J11Bs would have been quite capable in their own right before the re-equipping as they would never have gotten the new jets first if they were getting their butts kicked in all the exercises beforehand.

When you consider the improvements in the avionics of the J11B compared to the J11A, it would not be hard to see how someone who learnt to fight in the J11A might struggle a little with all the new equipment, concepts and workload of the new plane.

In a fight, the person who knows his bird implicitly and do not even have to think about the mechanics of performing actions and only need to decide what he wants to do will have a massive advantage over someone who needs to both actively concentrate to remember how to make his plane do certain things as well as having to decide what he wants his plane to do.

I am inclined to give the J11B and their pilots the benefit of the doubt for now, but will obviously revise my position if the J11B performs badly in subsequence exercises consistently as well. But hopefully it won't come to that, and this drubbing might just give the J11B pilots the kick up the butt they need to really focus their minds onto the task of fully mastering their new birds so that they can show everyone what the J11Bs can do next time.

Well as usual Wolfie, you have done a little homework and your argument is very sound, the PLAAF is setting the parameters for these engagements, so they may favor whoever they want to favor. It is typical when you transition to a new aircraft to have a learning curve, and the electronic cockpit is a lot different than an analog cockpit, and as someone has noted the J-11/15 is a big bird, it will benefit greatly from OVT in the close in turn and burn. The J-10 is obviously an easier aircraft to dogfight, and since its lighter, it doesn't take as much kinemetic energy to turn it, in contrast the J-11 is a big airplane and you bleed a lot of energy changing directions, you have to create a lot of lift, and that creates a lot of drag. Getting back into the fight you are at the bottom of the hill and have to climb back up, the J-10 by contrast is only halfway down the hill, so he is still on top of you in retained energy and velocity, so its easy for him to issue the coup-de-gras. Simple physics, that is why the Su-35, with canards and OVT is at less of a disadvantage. It all comes down to tactics, you have to fight to your advantage, this could have been a "lesson" to show the J-11b boys, that just because you have a shiny new powerfull aircraft, you don't automatically win. Some of you guys need to watch Top-Gun again, instructors in the A-4, are at an advantage over the fleet pilots in the F-14. Samo, Samo here, J-10 is at advatage over J-11 in a close in engagement, just basic physics. Now having said all that, I really prefer the Flanker to most anything else, with the exception of the F-22, present day, what will the future bring, we shall see?

[gullible]

hi, was that real regarding j11b/bs having problems of vibration as stated below?
that caused them to be rejected by plaaf & grounded for a year.
kanwa reported upon handing over of 2nd batch almost immediately the problem of vibration show up.
one of j11bs stalled & fell to the ground.
another j11bs having the same problem & that happened twice this year.
on march 17 the navy's j11b/bs (j15?) even has the left engine stalled..


【大纪元2012年08月26日讯】（大纪元记者林锋综合报导）中共解放军在歼-11B/BS装备部队之后，事故不断。最后竟然导致空军拒绝接收这类飞机，不得不“趴窝一年”，检查质量。

歼-11B/BS事故不断

中共解放军在歼-11B/BS装备部队之后，发生多起事故。CCTV等官方媒体都作了详细报导，只是不提歼-11的字而已。《汉和房屋评论》称其画面、描述细节明确显示是歼-llB或者歼-llBS。

这两种飞机是俄中军事合作过程中，争议最大的案子，俄明确指责歼-11B/BS，尤其是BS，是擅自抄袭的结果。

歼-11B/BS发生震颤

《汉和》引用消息来源称，在第二批歼-11B飞机交付空军的时候，当着空军的面，在交接起飞之后，发生震颤，空军拒绝接收，全部趴窝长达一年。随 后检查质量。消息还称，在歼-llBS试飞过程中，也发生了震颅间题，即刻进入失速状况，飞机坠毁。

海航8师、沈阳军区空军连续两次发生歼-11B战斗机震颅间题。关于沈阳军区歼-11BS的事件，CCTV专门报导的视频显示在低爬状况下，飞机机头突然前后摇摆，上下失去控制，很快进入 失速状祝（报导如此，在如此低的低空，飞机一旦失速，基本上会坠毁），距离地面不足300米高度，飞行员用 26秒钟控制了爬机。画像显示这是一架歼-11BS。两次事故都发生在今年。

海航8师刚刚接收歼-11B/BS，3月17日发生事故，同样是飞机先抖动，左发动机停车，高度3,800米。飞机失去平衡，急速下降， 最终着陆。

苏-27也有震颤问题

俄罗斯一直指责中共的歼-11B飞机抄袭苏-27飞机，中共一直不承认。

《汉和》称，苏-27当年也发生了震颤的情况，后来中途对飞机进行了几乎彻底的重新设计。

根据中共自己的说法，歼－11战机经历了三个阶段：第一阶段购买数架俄造苏27SK战机；第二阶段引进生产 线和散件组装数架苏27SK战机（即歼－11）；自主研制、升级、改进苏27SK战机（即歼-11B）。

歼-11B战机被定位为“打赢未来高科技条件下局部战争的重点型号”，“是党中央、国务院和中央军委的重大决策 ”，是党和国家赋予的“崇高历史使命”。

歼-11BS相比歼-11将安装WS10A新型涡扇发动，机载火控雷达、机载电子设备和国产新型武器装备。据称，歼-11BS的作战性能将达到苏-30MKK和苏-30MK2的水平。

[plawolf]

That's an article from the cult FLG run Epochtimes who have a massive axe to grind with all things China, and they are quoting Kawan, so the world's most anti-PRC publication quoting a publication with one of the worst track records reporting on Chinese military developments, a reliable story does not make.

Considering they are the only ones to claim that a J11B crashed and the air force refused to accept them yada yada yada, you would have to be extremely suspicious since no one else have mentioned anything of the sort, and those kinds of developments are not the kind of small fry rumors that might slip through the cracks.

Based on all that, I am calling BS on that article.

[Equation]

Well as usual Wolfie, you have done a little homework and your argument is very sound, the PLAAF is setting the parameters for these engagements, so they may favor whoever they want to favor. It is typical when you transition to a new aircraft to have a learning curve, and the electronic cockpit is a lot different than an analog cockpit, and as someone has noted the J-11/15 is a big bird, it will benefit greatly from OVT in the close in turn and burn. The J-10 is obviously an easier aircraft to dogfight, and since its lighter, it doesn't take as much kinemetic energy to turn it, in contrast the J-11 is a big airplane and you bleed a lot of energy changing directions, you have to create a lot of lift, and that creates a lot of drag. Getting back into the fight you are at the bottom of the hill and have to climb back up, the J-10 by contrast is only halfway down the hill, so he is still on top of you in retained energy and velocity, so its easy for him to issue the coup-de-gras. Simple physics, that is why the Su-35, with canards and OVT is at less of a disadvantage. It all comes down to tactics, you have to fight to your advantage, this could have been a "lesson" to show the J-11b boys, that just because you have a shiny new powerfull aircraft, you don't automatically win. Some of you guys need to watch Top-Gun again, instructors in the A-4, are at an advantage over the fleet pilots in the F-14. Samo, Samo here, J-10 is at advatage over J-11 in a close in engagement, just basic physics. Now having said all that, I really prefer the Flanker to most anything else, with the exception of the F-22, present day, what will the future bring, we shall see?

VIPER: "Good morning gentlemen...today's weather will be 110 degrees."

HOLLYWOOD: "Holy Sh*t it's Viper!"

GOOSE: "Oh GREAT....Viper's here.."

MAVERICK: "Yeah...I bet he's saying, oh great it's Maverick and Goose."

GOOSE: "Yeah I'm sure he's saying that (rolling eyes)"

That movie makes me appreciate how maneuverable the A-4 is and how fast and easily it turns in comparison to the F-14. One can tell the difference in the movie as well.

[plawolf]

Well Brat, you are too kind.

and as someone has noted the J-11/15 is a big bird, it will benefit greatly from OVT in the close in turn and burn. The J-10 is obviously an easier aircraft to dogfight, and since its lighter, it doesn't take as much kinemetic energy to turn it, in contrast the J-11 is a big airplane and you bleed a lot of energy changing directions, you have to create a lot of lift, and that creates a lot of drag.

Simple physics, that is why the Su-35, with canards and OVT is at less of a disadvantage.

Just a slight nit pick, but I think TVC engines are way over-blown and I am very skeptical of their usefulness in a dogfight.

I think I do not need to remind you of the experience of the Indian MKIs at red flag when they were too trigger happy with the TVC button.

As you have rightly pointed out, the Flanker is a big birdy, and the harder it turns, the more drag is created and the less kinetic energy and airspeed the pilot has to play with.

The sustained turn rate of a fighter depends far more on how much lift it's airframe can generate than TVC, the only thing TVC would massively aid is instantaneous turn rates, whereby the pilot sacrifices most of his airspeed and kinetic reserves to depart the aircraft and briefly point the nose of the aircraft to get a snapshot off before recovering and burning hard to regain some of it's lost speed and energy reserves before someone nails it.

That's about as close to useful as the likes of the Cobra will ever get in a real life combat environment (although I doubt any sane pilot would think about pulling a Cobra in combat even if he was attacking). However, you need to remember that just as the Flanker wallows and staggers after a Cobra and seem to almost stand still, the same will happen if you tried something similar in combat, and in the few seconds after you do a cobra (or extreme TVC maneuver), you are literally a sitting duck, so it's an extremely risky move to pull.

Now, my point is that since the Flanker is already a big, draggy airframe, the last thing it needs is a way to generate twice the drag in half the time if it wants to remain competitive as a dogfighter against smaller, lighter and more agile opponents.

As such, I very much doubt that a heavier flanker with TVC and canards but less powerful engines will automatically be better in WVR than a bare bones Flanker without TVC or canards.

Remember that at the end of the day, the Russians themselves deleted the canards off of the Su35. The canards would help the Su35's nose turning ability, but there can be too much of a good thing with nose pointing ability as I have already pointed out, and I think the Russians concluded that the extra drag and weight penalty they are incurring as a result of having canards is not worth the dubious benefit of being able to bleed airspeed faster.

It all comes down to tactics, you have to fight to your advantage, this could have been a "lesson" to show the J-11b boys, that just because you have a shiny new powerfull aircraft, you don't automatically win.

Excellent point. I remember reading about the experiences of an F15 jockey a few years back. He noted that in DACT between F15s and F18s, the pilots would fly their planes very differently to maximize the different strengths of their respective birds.

The F18 is a very agile little bird, so their pilots would try to force the F15s into turning dogfights, where the Hornets enjoyed the advantage. The F15 jocks otoh, would try to fight in the vertical plain, since the Eagles had superior acceleration and fuel fraction, so they would choose to go vertical to break out of turning dogfights and then dive back down to use their altitude and better acceleration to generate superior airspeed and energy reserves when they re-engage.

Since the PLAAF's J11s often play the 'Blue Force' in DACT, I think PLAAF flanker pilots should know this game pretty well as they would have seen more than their fair share of engagements against agile J7s.

Now with all that in mind, I think that for a large bird like the Flanker or Eagle, the increased weight and reduced thrust from TVC engines is just not a very good trade-off for slightly improved sustained and massively improved instantaneous turn rates. Quite frankly, they should not even be trying to play the turning game against smaller, more agile opponents. I would take more powerful non-TVC engines any day.

This would, incidentally, also help to explain why the WS10's initial slow spool-up time was such a big problem for the PLAAF. If their flankers' biggest advantage in WVR was their good acceleration, loosing that as a result of poor spool-up time on the engines would be a massive no-on.

However, I think the main reason the Flankers (J11As and Bs) have been having a torrid time against J10s in WVR is because unlike the J7 or F18 that can out-turn a Flanker/Eagle but cannot match it for acceleration, having seen the J10's vertical-climb-immediately-after-take-off party trick, I have a feeling the J10 has the edge in both a turning and climbing fight against the Flanker, and that leaves the poor old flanker pilots with a bit of a head scratcher as to how to deal with the J10, and thus far, the PLAAF Flanker pilots have been drawing blanks. It could just be that the physical advantages the J10 design have over the legacy flanker is just simply too big for clever tactics to overcome, much like how try as they may, USAF's legacy fighter pilots always gets their butts kicked by F22s.

This could help to explain why the J11B's loss to the J10s in BVR as well as WVR was so disappointing for PLAAF. If they pretty much have given up on J11s being able to outfight J10s in WVR, BVR is the only arena the J11 might hope to compete with the J10 on level or favorable terms, and I am sure the PLAAF were hoping that the new improve radar and avionics of the J11B might give them the edge in BVR.

As I said in my last post, I am still inclined to give the J11B and their pilots the benefit of the doubt and hope that once they have had more time to train and familiarize themselves with the new layout and capabilities of the J11B, that they might be able to use it to full effect to beat the J10 in BVR (until the J10B comes along at least ).

[MiG-29]

Have you heard about all the stories of J-11B regiments getting their butt kicked by J-10A and J-11A regiments this past year? It's not just a matter of better aircraft, but PLAAF has to learn to use them. From that perspective, I really don't see any reason China would want to get Su-35 at this point. They can produce more and more advanced variants of flankers if they so desire. They have to properly train the pilots to make good use of them first.

i know here we are in a forum and everyone says what ever we think. however tha answer for the Su-35 news is related in two ways


When? and what?


yes is when China will have a domestic supercruising TVC nozzled fitted engine for their fighters in production?
if they have it now, then you are right they do not need the Su-35, if they are about to have it and have solved almost all the problems, yes you could be right, otherwise, the Su-35 is needed if thy are unable to do it in at least 5-10 years period.


the what question is simple



what engines has China able for supercruise and with TVC nozzles available in production now?


Time will tell if they buy the Su-35 or not now i can say it wil take around 2-3 years to be solved this issue, because Russia wants at least 50-60 Su-35 bought by China, and this time unlike the Su-33, the Su-35 can not be sold by third parties, plus if China has a supercruising TVC nozzle with supercruise capability engine well they do not need the Su-35, but at this time Russia has 3 types of supercruising engines. it has the 117, 117S and T-30 engines with supercruising capabilities, 117 is in series production for Su-35BM, 117S is for the initial batches of PAKFA and in limited series production and T-30 is in tests, T-30 is the real deal in terms of performance.


So unless China can catch up with Russia in less than 8 years then you are right, otherwise they probably want to buy it

[MiG-29]

Well Brat, you are too kind.



Just a slight nit pick, but I think TVC engines are way over-blown and I am very skeptical of their usefulness in a dogfight.

.

TVC nozzles and the 117 engine it self are advantages that increase the ability of Su-35 beyond J-11B a great deal.


To put it simple the advantages range from higher thrust, STOL capability, longer range, better turn and roll rates, post stall capability.


Plus Su-35BM can supercruise, it means only Rafale, Eurofighter can do it in 4++ fighter aicraft and F-22 and PAKFA can do it too, J-20 it supposed it will do it, i do not know if now it does it, but PAKFA as we speak is having test of supercruising now.


So Su-35 can supercruise and choose how to fight while J-10 can not supercruise and Su-35 can dogfight with a J-10 easily even with some advantages, add the Russian Machine has more thrust available then you will get a bigger payload carrying capability, it means better BVR capability and longer legs CAP capability and at 400KM detection capability for a 3 square meter target means a J-10 can be detected at 200km since a F-35 can be detected at 90km.

pretty much Su-35 has 5th generation technologies with the exception of full aspect stealth

[kroko]

So unless China can catch up with Russia in less than 8 years then you are right, otherwise they probably want to buy it

remember that china thinks long term regarding military industry/capabilities. PLA is no longer in a dire position like it was in the 90´s.

[Engineer]

i know here we are in a forum and everyone says what ever we think. however tha answer for the Su-35 news is related in two ways


When? and what?


yes is when China will have a domestic supercruising TVC nozzled fitted engine for their fighters in production?
if they have it now, then you are right they do not need the Su-35, if they are about to have it and have solved almost all the problems, yes you could be right, otherwise, the Su-35 is needed if thy are unable to do it in at least 5-10 years period.

Here is a simple fact: China has absolutely no interest in the Su-35. This already reflects China does not view this plane positively. I think it has become quite clear that the Russian receive little international interests in this aircraft, otherwise some people would not feel the needs to bring out such false rumors every few months.

the what question is simple



what engines has China able for supercruise and with TVC nozzles available in production now?


Time will tell if they buy the Su-35 or not now i can say it wil take around 2-3 years to be solved this issue, because Russia wants at least 50-60 Su-35 bought by China, and this time unlike the Su-33, the Su-35 can not be sold by third parties, plus if China has a supercruising TVC nozzle with supercruise capability engine well they do not need the Su-35, but at this time Russia has 3 types of supercruising engines. it has the 117, 117S and T-30 engines with supercruising capabilities, 117 is in series production for Su-35BM, 117S is for the initial batches of PAKFA and in limited series production and T-30 is in tests, T-30 is the real deal in terms of performance.


So unless China can catch up with Russia in less than 8 years then you are right, otherwise they probably want to buy it

China has not only caught up but has already exceed Russia in fighter aircraft and related subsystems. J-20 is a perfect example. This is the simplest and a perfect explanation as to why China has no needs for the Su-35.

[Engineer]

TVC nozzles and the 117 engine it self are advantages that increase the ability of Su-35 beyond J-11B a great deal.


To put it simple the advantages range from higher thrust, STOL capability, longer range, better turn and roll rates, post stall capability.

TVC can hardly be called advantageous when it is offset by loads of disadvantages such higher mechanical complexity, which leads to higher weight and shorter lifespan. Furthermore, in that list of advantages you have cited, only increased roll rate and post stall capability is related to TVC, but the latter has little practical usefulness as it slows down the plane enormously. The remaining items in your list have little relevancy to TVC. For example, the contributors to higher thrust are mainly larger bypass-ratio or increase turbine inlet temperature. Higher thrust would automatically lead to shorter takeoff length; and assuming the same amount of fuel is used means longer range. Turn rate is related to total lift generated by the aircraft, and TVC does not provide this lift.

Plus Su-35BM can supercruise, it means only Rafale, Eurofighter can do it in 4++ fighter aicraft and F-22 and PAKFA can do it too, J-20 it supposed it will do it, i do not know if now it does it, but PAKFA as we speak is having test of supercruising now.


So Su-35 can supercruise and choose how to fight while J-10 can not supercruise and Su-35 can dogfight with a J-10 easily even with some advantages, add the Russian Machine has more thrust available then you will get a bigger payload carrying capability, it means better BVR capability and longer legs CAP capability and at 400KM detection capability for a 3 square meter target means a J-10 can be detected at 200km since a F-35 can be detected at 90km.

pretty much Su-35 has 5th generation technologies with the exception of full aspect stealth

If Su-35 is so much better than what China has, then China should have brought some already according to you. However, we see that is not the case as China expressed no interest in the aircraft. So, either the Su-35 is not as good as the Russian claimed, or China already has something that exceeds the Su-35's capabilities. Indeed, why would China need to make J-10 go supercruise when J-20 would suffice?

[hmmwv]

So unless China can catch up with Russia in less than 8 years then you are right, otherwise they probably want to buy it

Not they don't. China may want to buy the engine, but not the whole plane. With two types of full on fifth gen fighters on the way China will not want to buy what's essentially obsolete technology just to get the engine. Yeah it's nice to have 117S, just like it's nice to have S400, but capabilities offered by both systems are not deemed absolutely necessary to PLA, so they are willing to wait for domestic equivalent instead of buying from Russia. If Chinese weapons development in recent years is an indication it won't take long.

No matter how you spin it, the China buying Su35 joke will remain as wishful thinking of the Russians.

[Air Force Brat]

remember that china thinks long term regarding military industry/capabilities. PLA is no longer in a dire position like it was in the 90´s.

No, but they also want capability today, not tommorow, as far as we know they have two airworthy J-20 prototypes, I really think having the Su-35 in the interim, as well as access to those TVC equipped Russian engines in the interim might play to their advantage, all protestations to the contrary aside, and I "know" those engineers at Chengdu would love to see what their baby would do with a pair of TVC equiped powerplants!