China Flanker Thread II

[Schumacher]

Maybe J-16 is a far more potent platform for A2G mode. We know J-10A and J-11B can drop PGM but firing KD-88, C-802 and Anti-radiation missile needs far more dedicated platform and system...Something like J-16?

It will be like the real F-15E strike eagle.

J16 won't be like your run of the mill F15E mind you. They say it'll come standard with AESA, souped up WS10 and some other goodies you find on China's 4th gen projects.
Something like the F15SG of the Strike Eagle family, with souped up radar and engines compared with the rest.

[Deino]

Honestly I don't get this "J-16 = Su-30MKK-clone" like posted in such stupid reports (for example: Procurement: Chinese Counterfeiters Nail Another Russian Jet Fighter), since these all prove that these guys either can't distinguish a Su-27UB from a Su-30MKK, or they are intentionally posting bull**** or they are simply plain stupid. Propably their only source is KANWA !!!!

First of all; by simply comparing these "cell phone camera" images, which were allegedly showing the J-16, each one with at least a minimum of understanding can clearly see that this is a standard twin-seat-Flanker with the single wheel front gear, no IFR-probe and most noteable the canted fin-tips. (Just in comparison to a twin nose wheel gear, IFR-probe and sqaured tips of the MKK)

Therefore no need to discuss any further ...

Besides that as also noted, the question remains, what - if ever - is this mysterious J-16 ?? As far as I know this version will be simply a AG-optimised J-11B, which - similar to that strange behavior at Sukhoi, where each and every new Flanker received a new number - will propably feature the above mentioned features (similar to the J-15), but again so far we haven't seen that type.

Deino

[escobar]

[SinoSoldier]

Honestly I don't get this "J-16 = Su-30MKK-clone" like posted in such stupid reports (for example: Procurement: Chinese Counterfeiters Nail Another Russian Jet Fighter), since these all prove that these guys either can't distinguish a Su-27UB from a Su-30MKK, or they are intentionally posting bull**** or they are simply plain stupid. Propably their only source is KANWA !!!!

First of all; by simply comparing these "cell phone camera" images, which were allegedly showing the J-16, each one with at least a minimum of understanding can clearly see that this is a standard twin-seat-Flanker with the single wheel front gear, no IFR-probe and most noteable the canted fin-tips. (Just in comparison to a twin nose wheel gear, IFR-probe and sqaured tips of the MKK)

Therefore no need to discuss any further ...

Besides that as also noted, the question remains, what - if ever - is this mysterious J-16 ?? As far as I know this version will be simply a AG-optimised J-11B, which - similar to that strange behavior at Sukhoi, where each and every new Flanker received a new number - will propably feature the above mentioned features (similar to the J-15), but again so far we haven't seen that type.

Deino

I'm with you buddy. People are mistaking what the J-16 is. All this stereotype that all Chinese J-11B Flankers are "copies" of their Russian ones or that this new strike plane must be a copy of a Russian strike plane is purely absurd. We already know that it is simply a J-11BS with ground assault ability; a fighter that is purely based on home made systems. Not related at all to the Su-30MK2. Not to mention the news source is Kanwa.

---------- Post added at 12:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 PM ----------

Well the delta obviously moves the center of lift aft, compared to a midwing design, and the canard restores/increases pitch authority, much like OVT. To take advantage of the high AoA capability, in addition to creating a vortex to increase lift. It is much shorter, and the mass is centralized, much like the newer sport bikes, Honda marketed mass centralization as a design philosophy. The Flanker has a large main wing in the center and lots of pitch authority, but is not nearly as dynamically unstable as the delta/canard configuration. So you sold me young man, I'm buyin it.

I guess that's one of the reasons we are seeing all those tri plane designs. I'd love to see a similar drill betwen the J-10 and J-15.

[escobar]

[Deino]

Just when You think Your work is done and You finally have everything together, You understand that strange numbering system .... then the PLAAF changes their complete numbering system and everything begins again .....

Here are the first two - at least for me - images of a former 37. Division ... now 111. Brigade showing the new numbering system:

ABxCx - 611 = Brigade ... here a J-11BS with 72323 meaning aircraft no. 22 (= xx) and ABC = 722 ... as such 722-611 = 111. Brigade !

Now we only have to find out everything about all the other brigades, their Bases and air bases ...

[franco-russe]

Cheer up! So far it is only four bases and 16 brigades! Plus of course all the regiments that have changed subordination - and a new division. Lots of fun!

[Franklin]

The J-10 story reminds me of the story i've read about the J-11b's participation with the exercises in Turkye the Anatoly Eagle. There the J-11's where just as good as the Turkish F-16 in BVR combat but at close range the J-11's got canned because they where constantly out turned by the F-16's. This is why it's importend to have TVC engines on the Flankers like the Russians and Indians have. Do anyone know the status of the WS-10B engines ? That is the WS-10A with 3D TVC.

[Lion]

The J-10 story reminds me of the story i've read about the J-11b's participation with the exercises in Turkye the Anatoly Eagle. There the J-11's where just as good as the Turkish F-16 in BVR combat but at close range the J-11's got canned because they where constantly out turned by the F-16's. This is why it's importend to have TVC engines on the Flankers like the Russians and Indians have. Do anyone know the status of the WS-10B engines ? That is the WS-10A with 3D TVC.

PLAAF send obsolete J-11A to participate in the exercise. They never send J-11B.

Plus, I believe, those pilot purposely loses out to Turkish AirForce in those exercise.

[no_name]

I thought they only get to exercise with F-4s, not F-16s?

[Air Force Brat]

PLAAF send obsolete J-11A to participate in the exercise. They never send J-11B.

Plus, I believe, those pilot purposely loses out to Turkish AirForce in those exercise.

Lion, no fighter pilot would never ever never never throw a fight, it ain't in em. They would lose their membership in the fighter pilot hot dog society, and that ain't gonna happen. Two things here, the flanker is a big bird, the F-16 is a turnin burnin little fool. The Turkish guys have had a long and happy relationship with the USAF, not sure where thats at with their new leadership. So, fighter 101, small light agile, has an advantage over large heavy bird when A2A up close and personal, TVC can change that, TVC with canards, good for you. Also, USAF training is the real deal, you could end up "dead" for real playing fighter pilot games, it ain't bingo at the Catholic Church! Its Ok, thats how you get better, flying against the other guy who kicks your butt, is very motivational, the AF philosophy is train harder than you need to, then the real deal is no big deal, (I know it always is). The PLAAF has just recently moved its AF into the real world of Top Gun, and they are learning fast. Also USAF recently lost an F-15 in SEA playin fighter pilot games, it does get "real" ugly.

[Lion]

Lion, no fighter pilot would never ever never never throw a fight, it ain't in em. They would lose their membership in the fighter pilot hot dog society, and that ain't gonna happen. Two things here, the flanker is a big bird, the F-16 is a turnin burnin little fool. The Turkish guys have had a long and happy relationship with the USAF, not sure where thats at with their new leadership. So, fighter 101, small light agile, has an advantage over large heavy bird when A2A up close and personal, TVC can change that, TVC with canards, good for you. Also, USAF training is the real deal, you could end up "dead" for real playing fighter pilot games, it ain't bingo at the Catholic Church! Its Ok, thats how you get better, flying against the other guy who kicks your butt, is very motivational, the AF philosophy is train harder than you need to, then the real deal is no big deal, (I know it always is). The PLAAF has just recently moved its AF into the real world of Top Gun, and they are learning fast. Also USAF recently lost an F-15 in SEA playin fighter pilot games, it does get "real" ugly.

What I heard is the PLAAF J-11a, don't even bother to manoevur much and just let their turkish counterpart get the lock and killed.

The score is all PLAAF fighter killed and none of the Turkish counterpart slay.

Just the fighter they send more or less tells you , they are going there not to have the desire to win.

J-11A is the most primitive of all flanker class in PLAAF. Same as Su-27Sk. I believe this mission is more of a friendship/PR and at the same time some info digging of NATO doctrine..

[Air Force Brat]

What I heard is the PLAAF J-11a, don't even bother to manoevur much and just let their turkish counterpart get the lock and killed.

The score is all PLAAF fighter killed and none of the Turkish counterpart slay.

Just the fighter they send more or less tells you , they are going there not to have the desire to win.

J-11A is the most primitive of all flanker class in PLAAF. Same as Su-27Sk. I believe this mission is more of a friendship/PR and at the same time some info digging of NATO doctrine..

Flying against old F-16s, no sale on this one my man, kind of my point, "where'd he go? where'd who go?" bingo you're dead! You def need to watch Top Gun again. My first and only A2A flying against a buddy in a Cherokee Arrow, I'll break right, you break left", I never saw him again, He had a low wing, I had a 150 aerobat with a high wing, I broke it off when I couldn't find him. So you've got to stay in contact. A good guy in an Su-27 will whip an average guy in an Su-33 or Su35 given equal weapon systems.

One only has to look at USAF and Navy F-4s in a very superior airplane being shot down by North Vietnamese/Chinese pilots in the inferior Mig 21. F-4 no gun, no dogfight, just launch and loose missles, mig 21 turn and burn baby, great little airplane.IMHO

More importantly don't believe your own propaganda, if you got a problem get some help. Western A2A is all business, all the time, don't get stuck in the Ad filler on forums. Put a USAF guy in those same J-11As park your guy in the F-16s, same story different book, you fight what you brung to the fight, you don't let the other guy sucker you into his game. Now having said that the PLAAF is learning this dog and pony show, their A2A doctrine is evolving at a rapid pace, as Korea and Vietnam taught us, never underestimate your opponent. There are no magic bullets in this business, it only takes a moment to lose focus and your tagged out, just saying, this game is instructive, nobody will win in these matchups.

[CottageLV]

Flying against old F-16s, no sale on this one my man, kind of my point, "where'd he go? where'd who go?" bingo you're dead! You def need to watch Top Gun again. My first and only A2A flying against a buddy in a Cherokee Arrow, I'll break right, you break left", I never saw him again, He had a low wing, I had a 150 aerobat with a high wing, I broke it off when I couldn't find him. So you've got to stay in contact. A good guy in an Su-27 will whip an average guy in an Su-33 or Su35 given equal weapon systems.

One only has to look at USAF and Navy F-4s in a very superior airplane being shot down by North Vietnamese/Chinese pilots in the inferior Mig 21. F-4 no gun, no dogfight, just launch and loose missles, mig 21 turn and burn baby, great little airplane.IMHO

More importantly don't believe your own propaganda, if you got a problem get some help. Western A2A is all business, all the time, don't get stuck in the Ad filler on forums. Put a USAF guy in those same J-11As park your guy in the F-16s, same story different book, you fight what you brung to the fight, you don't let the other guy sucker you into his game. Now having said that the PLAAF is learning this dog and pony show, their A2A doctrine is evolving at a rapid pace, as Korea and Vietnam taught us, never underestimate your opponent. There are no magic bullets in this business, it only takes a moment to lose focus and your tagged out, just saying, this game is instructive, nobody will win in these matchups.

If my memory serves me correctly, for all fighter "families"/series, usually the first one is always the most agile. The first model usually leave few liters of space for further avionics upgrades. They are the lightest of the family, hence the most agile (if you don't take upgrading fly-by-wire control system updates into consideration).

---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 PM ----------

Anyone heard about the J11 canopy exploding in mid-air? I heard the same thing happened last year on a J10. Is this a quality control problem?

[hmmwv]

If my memory serves me correctly, for all fighter "families"/series, usually the first one is always the most agile. The first model usually leave few liters of space for further avionics upgrades. They are the lightest of the family, hence the most agile (if you don't take upgrading fly-by-wire control system updates into consideration).

---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 PM ----------

Anyone heard about the J11 canopy exploding in mid-air? I heard the same thing happened last year on a J10. Is this a quality control problem?

In this case the J11B is probably more agile than J11A/27SK due to the slightly more powerful WS10A and weight reduction by utilizing much higher percentage of composite material. Regarding the J11BS exploding canopy I think it's either a QC or design issue, after the J10 incident there were a bunch of essays discussing ways to resolve the issue but they probably haven't cascaded down to all planes.