China Flanker thread

[tphuang]

well, the Russians are displaying su-35 in Zhuhai, let's see what China makes of this.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20061031/55256972.html

ZHUHAI (China), October 31 (RIA Novosti) - Sukhoi, Russia's state-owned aircraft manufacturing holding, said Tuesday a prototype of its advanced multi-role fighter has been undergoing flight tests.

Sukhoi is among more than 50 Russian companies showcasing their aircraft and aerospace technologies at the sixth China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition (Airshow China 2006), which opened today in Zhuhai, in southern China.

"A prototype of the Su-35 has already conducted test flights, but I cannot give you more details," said Sergei Sergeyev, deputy general director of the holding and head of Sukhoi's China office.

He also said the company has started to promote the Su-35 fighter on the Chinese market.

The Su-35 Flanker-E is an advanced version of the Su-27 interceptor and is powered by two AL-37F engines. It is a versatile fighter that combines high maneuverability and the capacity to intercept air targets with ground and sea attack capability using both unguided and guided, including high precision, weapons.

[tphuang]

no idea what kind of cooperations the Russians are looking for here, but they seem to make a lot of impression on the media.

ZHUHAI (China). Nov 2 (Interfax-AVN) - Russia and China will
develop cooperation in military aircraft building, Federal Industry
Agency head Boris Alyoshin told Interfax-AVN on the sideline of the
Airshow China 2006 international aerospace show.
"China is trying to diversify its aviation industry with the focus
on technologies. Their potential is purposefully growing. China is
trying to adapt every imported item to the local industries. Further
development of the Sukhoi Su-30 project is under consideration. I am
positive that we will develop military cooperation, especially in
building such planes," he said.
China is targeted for the full cycle of aircraft building, from
blueprints to finished products, Alyoshin said. "Our policy should be
formed with due consideration of this fact. Our bids should be
interesting for us, in the first terms. Our aircraft building industry
has a well-developed military component, and a less developed civilian
component. It would be of interest for us to develop the civilian
component together with China and share risks or establishing a
partnership in the aircraft design and production. Time will show what
will happen," he said.
For details, see the Interfax - Military News Agency newswire.

[tphuang]

claims to be the SAPSAN-E laser targetting pod

not sure, I've never actually seen the SAPSAN-E pod before this, maybe Crobato can verify?

[crobato]

Lol.

Unit numbers look like 111XX and I'm guessing its 11148, which puts this plane in the first regiment of the 3rd Division (7th Regiment?). However, the "1" second digit shows the regiment is no longer the lead regiment, since the "0" is taken up by the regiment taking J-10s.

I have to concur with the pods. That definitely confirms SAPSAN-E is operational with the PLAAF.

The other pod near it is something that works with the Kh-59ME, like an extended datalink and communications device. Just forgot the name of it at the moment.

You can clearly see both Kh-29TE and Kh-59ME in the wings.

Note the R-77s on the ground.

The article suggests that China may be warming up again on possible Su-30 purchases in the future. It looks to me that the Russians may have found a technology sweet spot they could offer to the Chinese now. Perhaps a more advanced form of Su-30MKK that can satisfy Chinese requirements which obviously have outgrown the original MKK. The MK2 may be skipped.

[tphuang]

This is an article on J-11B from aviationnow. They tried to tie a lot of what J-11B uses to Zhuhai airshow, although I personally only expect KD-88 and LT-2 to be used by plaaf.
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/new...aw110606p2.xml

OWER PLAY

China is in the midst of a critical period of testing an "indigenous" version of the Russian Su-27 Flanker, known as the J-11B, with propulsion, radar and weapons system integration underway.

The effort is emblematic of Beijing's efforts to recast its capabilities for the 21st century as its military and associated defense-aerospace sector undergoes its own revolution in military affairs.

The development of the J-11B, if successful, will mark a notable change in capability--not only for key elements of the country's defense industrial base, but also for the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

The Chinese military is recalibrating the balance of quantity and quality in favor of the latter, as a guarantor of a decisive military edge and the ability to project power regionally. At the same time, the nature of the relationship between Beijing and Moscow may be subtly changing, reflecting China's growing confidence in its own capabilities.

Alongside key elements on the J-11B, Chinese industry is beginning to produce a gamut of capable guided weapons, both tactical and strategic, including satellite-guided precision systems. The emergence of unmanned platforms is also gaining the attention of Beijing.

The nationally developed systems now in various stages of the J-11B test program potentially provide performance improvements over the various Su-27 models now in PLAAF service.

Air Show China, held here Oct. 31-Nov. 5, included the first official detail about the Shenyang Tai Hang engine. This turbofan powerplant is being developed for the Flanker, and is also sometimes referred to as the WS-10A. A handful of J-11B airframes are now likely being used for development testing, including at least one J-11B engine-integration aircraft.

Beijing and Moscow first agreed on the Flanker sale in 1991, with a license production contract signed in 1996. The Flanker has given China its most capable fighter aircraft while also providing a vehicle for its industry to gain knowledge of fourth-generation fighter manufacturing. The first kit-built J-11A was completed in 1998. The J-11A still uses Russian engines, radar and weaponry.

Design and development of the Tai Hang has been underway for nearly two decades, says one senior Chinese aero-engine executive. He admits the program has proved challenging: "We hit difficulties in developing the engine."

Chinese industry executives attending the show remain reticent to discuss the J-11B program. The executive would say only that the Tai Hang has "similar applications to the Al-31 [the present Su-27 engine]. It's of a similar thrust and is of the same technology generation." The J-11B program also includes the integration of Chinese-developed planar array pulse-Doppler radar replacing the Russian N-001 cassegrain radar, at least two versions of which are fielded by the PLAAF. An image of a J-11B, still in its primer (see top photo on p. 27), appears to show the aircraft fitted with a different radome to the basic Su-27. Given the available space for a flat-plate antenna, this would offer a performance improvement over the N-0001.

Also associated with the J-11B is the Luoyang PL-12 active radar-guided medium-range air-to-air missile. While the Chinese air force already has the Russian R-77 (AA-12 Adder) in service with the Su-27, the PL-12 offers a big performance increase over the present export standard of the Vympel R-77. Officials from the company were unable to discuss the PL-12 project.

The initial development test-firing program for the overall PL-12 program now appears complete, with the missile at least close to service entry. It was integrated first on the J-8II for the development program. Trials of the PL-12 on the Chengdu J-10 also have been carried out.

The PL-12 does benefit from Russian technology, with the seeker and inertial guidance system provided by Moscow. A variant of the Agat 9B-1103M radar seeker is the most likely candidate for the missile. This seeker was intended initially for an improved version of the R-77, but appears to have been sold to China first.

The PLAAF currently has the capability for two-target engagement using the Su-27, R-77 combination. Successful integration of the PL-12 on the J-11B would likely provide a genuine multitarget capability and give the PLAAF a more capable air superiority aircraft.

The country is also moving to fill gaps in its tactical weapons capability, and to bolster its ability to support combat aircraft export proposals with credible guided-weapons packages. The show included the presentation of several previously unseen air-launched tactical systems. Luoyang showed the LT-2 laser-guided bomb, along with the LS-6 precision-guided glide bomb (middle photo). Rival China Aerospace and Technology Corp. unveiled its FT-1 and FT-3 satellite-guided weapons family. Both are aimed at potential exports of the FC-1 light fighter, including Pakistan, and likely national requirements.

Meanwhile, China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp. (Casic) showed the C-704 antiship missile (bottom photo), along with the C-802KD air-to-surface version of the C-802 antiship weapon.

The LT-2 has been in service with the Chinese air force "for more than three years," says a Luoyang executive. The 500-kg.-class (1,100-lb.) weapon resembles the Russian KAB family. The official suggested that the laser-guided bomb has a range of up to 20 km. (12.4 mi.) from high altitude, with an average accuracy of about 2 meters (6.5 ft.).

The LS-6 appears, in effect, a successor system, with a family of weapons planned. The official says "about a dozen" launch tests of the LS-6 precision bomb kit have been carried out using a Shenyang J-8II as the test aircraft. The program was begun in 2003, with testing now complete.

He identifies the JF-17--the Pakistan air force designation for the Chengdu FC-1 now in development--as the next intended aircraft for integration of the weapon. Guidance is provided by an inertial package coupled with satellite navigation. The official says the weapons family will be capable of using three systems--the U.S. GPS, the Russian Glonass and China's own Beidou system. The architecture for this system eventually foresees using five satellites in geosynchronous orbit (GEO) and up to 30 non-GEO platforms.

The 500-kg. LS-6 has a maximum launch range of 60 km. from medium altitude. A 1,000-kg. kit has also been considered, although this requires a larger wing. A 250-kg. variant is in the pipeline as well. Also under study is the addition of a laser seeker.

The two weapons shown by Casic cover the 250-kg. and 500-kg. class. The FT-1 bears a resemblance to the U.S. Joint Direct Attack Munition. Development began in 2001, according to a company executive. Tests have been carried out from a Xian JH-7. Range of the FT-1 is given as up to 18 km., depending on the release altitude and aircraft speed, with an accuracy of "30 meters, or less." Casic subsidiary China National Precision Machinery Import & Export Corp. is responsible for the C-704. At least a small batch of the antiship missile has been produced.

The design is strongly reminiscent of the Hongdu JJ/TL-6 antiship missile, although dimensions and performance figures for the two vary slightly. Data provided for the C-704 give the monopulse active-radar-guided missile a maximum engagement range of 35 km.

The company is also offering a further variant of its C-802 antiship missile. The air-launched C-802KD is claimed to be capable of engaging ships in harbor or some fixed land targets. Given that the missile is fitted with a radar seeker only, land targets would need to provide a high radar contrast.

An electro-optically guided medium-size air-launched weapon in a similar class to the C-802 is under development in China. This program almost certainly corresponds to the KD-88 designation.

The first indications of a measured shift in Sino-Russian relations could be detected in the outcome of the ongoing "push and shove" between Beijing and Moscow over the provision of a Russian engine for the FC-1 light fighter. The aircraft is a joint development between China and Pakistan.

Chinese and Russian aerospace executives are maintaining China's FC-1 light fighter will be provided to Pakistan with a Russian engine, though this is still pending political approval from Moscow. The Russian government has yet to approve the release, with suggestions that Moscow might nix a deal to avoid jeopardizing sales to India.

[tphuang]

found this on JDW

China assesses new radar for Su-30 fighters
The People's Liberation Army (PLA) is discussing an upgrade plan for air force and navy Su-30s that would enhance their combat capabilities in the same...

don't have the full article, if I was to venture a guess, the radar would be Zhuk-MSE.

[nonpilot]

Number question
Does China have more active Flankers then Russia? I tried to Google it but can't seem to find a answer, thanks.

[crobato]

Originally Posted by nonpilot

Number question
Does China have more active Flankers then Russia? I tried to Google it but can't seem to find a answer, thanks.

The answer to that is yes they do. My own estimates put it around 300-350 of all types, Su-27SK, UBK, J-11 of all blocks, Su-30MKK and MK2. Apparently, J-11s are continued to be produced even after the kits were stopped, and these were done by sourcing some of the Russian originated parts individually from the Russian contractors.

[crobato]

Originally Posted by tphuang

found this on JDW

China assesses new radar for Su-30 fighters
The People's Liberation Army (PLA) is discussing an upgrade plan for air force and navy Su-30s that would enhance their combat capabilities in the same...

don't have the full article, if I was to venture a guess, the radar would be Zhuk-MSE.

I'm not sure how much better the Zhuk MSE would be to the N001VEP. I'm sure its better but would be worth the cost of the upgrade?

This sounds to me more like the PERO phase array upgrade. What they will do to the radar is not to replace the radar completely, but change the antenna from the twist cassegrain at present, to a phase array. This is probably a lot more painless.

[nonpilot]

Thanks crobato
Wow 300/350 is a lot of Flankers and to me the Flanker is the best fighter in the world beside the F-22.

Do you know how many Russia has active my google searches didn't provide me with clear answers.

Originally Posted by crobato

The answer to that is yes they do. My own estimates put it around 300-350 of all types, Su-27SK, UBK, J-11 of all blocks, Su-30MKK and MK2. Apparently, J-11s are continued to be produced even after the kits were stopped, and these were done by sourcing some of the Russian originated parts individually from the Russian contractors.

[rhino123]

Originally Posted by nonpilot

Thanks crobato
Wow 300/350 is a lot of Flankers and to me the Flanker is the best fighter in the world beside the F-22.

I would have to disagree here. Flanker, by these I meant the Su-27 is an old technology. I would look to the French's Rafale, or European's Eurofighters to be more modern and perhaps better fighters. Hack... even the newer F-15 will give the Su-27 hell of a time.

If you meant Su-30MK2... hmm... then it will be a tough fight here.

[nonpilot]

I kind of meant the later model Su-30 models sorry I was not clear. I thought correct me if I'm wrong that sort of like an F-15C the Su-30 Flanker has the power, speed to force the issue or fight. I don't know much about modern air combat if you could explain a little I like to learn more. Stuff like getting into position to take the first shot, if both aircraft see each at say 90 miles apart who has the advantage, these types of questions and more are the ones I like to learn about. Thanks in advance if you can help, nonpilot

rhino were you a member of combat edge?

Originally Posted by rhino123

I would have to disagree here. Flanker, by these I meant the Su-27 is an old technology. I would look to the French's Rafale, or European's Eurofighters to be more modern and perhaps better fighters. Hack... even the newer F-15 will give the Su-27 hell of a time.

If you meant Su-30MK2... hmm... then it will be a tough fight here.

[crobato]

China does not have the kind of Su-30 India has. China's Su-30s, about a hundred of them, are more like the basic Flanker upgraded to multirole capability to deliver guided missiles and munitions against ground and sea targets.

The rest are Su-27SK, UBK and J-11s are pretty much like the basic Su-27SK. Many of these planes are upgraded to use the R-77 through a modification in the radar.

A lot of people seem to diss on the base Su-27 for being primitive, but don't underestimate it. It is a very tough opponent. For example, IRST and HMS gives it capabilities beyond many more modern fighters. India's Su-30K performed remarkably well in exercises, and that's not much more than an Su-27UBK with a refueling probe.

[kunmingren]

so does that mean chinese j-11 doesnt have areial refueling capability?

just a quick question, beside a few specical j-8, what other chinese plane can be refueled in air?

[crobato]

Originally Posted by kunmingren

so does that mean chinese j-11 doesnt have areial refueling capability?

just a quick question, beside a few specical j-8, what other chinese plane can be refueled in air?

Only the Su-30 can refuel on the air, but not the Su-27 and J-11. However, the internal fuel volume of the Flanker is so high, you don't need to refuel unless for very very long missions.

J-8IIs need to refuel more often as they suck up gas rather bad. Compared to modern turbofan fighters, J-8IIs are less than fuel efficient.