China Flanker thread

[renmin]

Russia does supply alot and I mean alot of military equpment to China. Could Russia keep up their promises I do not know. But from my side, engines are a easier product to import. I think it could very well be for J11B. From my knowledge arnt J-11s now also armed with rocket pods for ground attacks? Correct me if Im wrong.

[MIGleader]

The su-27s were armed with rocket pods a long time ago. They used them in the 1996 excercises, to conduct very outdated unguided ground attacks. Even helicopters can use rocket pods more effectively.

typhuang, I doubt that the r-77 can fire 100km, but 50 is too short. 50km is the range of the AMRAAM and the Derby. The r-77 is bigger than the Amraam, and has a very powerful motor. The missle travels slowly for a A2A missle(mach 3), all of which add up to the conclusion that the r-77 must have a longer range, probably 75km. Of course, you never fire your missle at maximum range.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by MIGleader

The su-27s were armed with rocket pods a long time ago. They used them in the 1996 excercises, to conduct very outdated unguided ground attacks. Even helicopters can use rocket pods more effectively.

typhuang, I doubt that the r-77 can fire 100km, but 50 is too short. 50km is the range of the AMRAAM and the Derby. The r-77 is bigger than the Amraam, and has a very powerful motor. The missle travels slowly for a A2A missle(mach 3), all of which add up to the conclusion that the r-77 must have a longer range, probably 75km. Of course, you never fire your missle at maximum range.

actually, the maximum range of R-77 is probably 100KM (so, it can theoretically go that far), but that's not the maximum effective range of R-77.

I guess it depends on what profile you are measuring the range under. Different profiles, different range.

Anyway, having looked over the article and examined it more carefully, the stuff about Lanzhou getting a new regiment is just junk. Seriously, the photos for the 19th division http://www.china-military.org/units/.../19div_pix.htm
clearly shows that the flankers with serial number 30106 and 30107 are for this division. Not the 37th or 47th division as mentionned by Kanwa. This is getting sad. Their analysis is based on the flankers' background.

[Totoro]

Hm, well, i recently compared few missiles, got as much info bout their test firings as i could and tried to extrapolate some results, depending on their size, weight (minus warhead), speed. It does assume engine/fuel is of same efficiency in every missile - which might be wrong.

I concluded max range for mica is just under 70 km, for r77 is just under 100km, for aim120c7 is just over 80 km. That is, of course, max theoretical range in perfect conditions - highest speed at launch, highest altitude, stationary target not evading, etc. Anyone care to agree or disagree?

[MIGleader]

Ive heard way to many figures fo the aim-120C7 to be sure. i ve heard 60km, 80-100km, and even as daring as 150 km.

Btw, the r-77 is not the PLAAFs longest ranging active seeker missle. The r-27AE has a range of 130km, the longest ive seen for a MRAAM.

[Baibar of Jalat]

the missile long range would be effective at neutralising AWACs and other slow moving but valuable targets.

plus with the monueverability of flanker could also defend against enemy fighters, which the mig 31 lacks. my thoughts are based on. People on this forum have speculated that the reason why Indian fighters won in mock dog fights against f-15s were partially due to lack of US AWACS support. (a bit of topic)

[crobato]

Originally Posted by tphuang

actually, the maximum range of R-77 is probably 100KM (so, it can theoretically go that far), but that's not the maximum effective range of R-77.

I guess it depends on what profile you are measuring the range under. Different profiles, different range.

Anyway, having looked over the article and examined it more carefully, the stuff about Lanzhou getting a new regiment is just junk. Seriously, the photos for the 19th division http://www.china-military.org/units/.../19div_pix.htm
clearly shows that the flankers with serial number 30106 and 30107 are for this division. Not the 37th or 47th division as mentionned by Kanwa. This is getting sad. Their analysis is based on the flankers' background.

Yes quite sad.

I do have to add that Lanzhou MR already has J-11s, but KANWA didn't know that the 6th Division---which is reported to have J-11s even as back as 2004---happens to belong to Lanzhou MR.

Hui Tong's pic of J-11 10574

http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/gallery/J-11_54.jpg

is a J-11 belonging to the 6th Division assigned Lanzhou MR.

The thing is, the 6th Division hardly gets any media coverage compared to the other Flanker equipped divisions, so it may finally be getting some overdue coverage.

Having 19th Division planes pictures in the Kong Jun Bao article only means three things---

1. The KJB editors are lazy and is just using the 19th Division pics as file pictures to visually embellish the article. In the press it's called a file picture and is only meant to furbish an article in a generic sense.

2. The next is that 19th Division J-11s and Su-27s, many of which are old, are being transferred to Lanzhou. Lanzhou MR is way west, and away from the front lines. It's a good place to deposit older planes, while formations in the east upgrade to new planes. The 19th Division has a front row seat in the east. There is some speculation that the older Su-27s in the 2nd Division had the same fate.

3. The last possibility is that the 19th Division is there in Lanzhou to participate in wargames. The area in the back of China is good for wargaming due to the abundance of space and environment, much like the west in the US.

My gut feeling is #1. The KJB article is just finally giving the 6th Division its media due but using file pics which were of the 19th Division. Since Kanwa didn't know about the 6th Division, it just seems "first time" for him. Which makes me think he is even more clueless than I previously assumed.

If there is any new J-11 assignments it is probably in a new base in Liancheng, in Fujien province. This is just across the straits. There was a Taiwan news report about this in December 2005, and a PLA article about J-11s exercising from a new location. Recently, satellite photos have indeed confirmed the presence of Sues in this location.

As for the 47th, I don't think it is active any longer. The 37th Division is something to watch out for though. It has a J-7E regiment, a J-7B/H one and recently a J-7G conversion. As I said before, a J-7 regiment is prime candidate for a J-10 or J-11 conversion in the future.

[Twix101]

Originally Posted by MIGleader

Ive heard way to many figures fo the aim-120C7 to be sure. i ve heard 60km, 80-100km, and even as daring as 150 km.

Btw, the r-77 is not the PLAAFs longest ranging active seeker missle. The r-27AE has a range of 130km, the longest ive seen for a MRAAM.

The range of this kind of missile depend greatly of the kind of target, if it's a modern Fighter, you will have a lower range than if it's a bomber. For example, the AIM-120B AMRAAM have a range of 70km for a terminal 3-4G manoeuver from target and the MICA EM have a range of 60km for a terminal 9G manoeuver from target.

[Totoro]

While in practice such rule of thumb is true - that you can engange less agile planes at max range - in theory you can bring down any plane at max range of the missile. Key being that the target is oblivious of incoming missile. In a situation where other aircraft (other than one that launches the missile) illuminate the target from afar, where the launching aircraft is not detected by enemy radar, and in the situation where target's missile warning systems fail - be it cause theyre too old to deal with newest amraams (say, mig 21) or that the missile itself doesn't emit any signal - the theory may, in very selected situations, transform into usable practice.

[Sabertooth05]

Hello guys, saw a TV program here that showed Indian Su30 MKIs in dogfight. It was amazing..... Showed all the use of TVC and the canards... There was even the acclaimed tailslide.... definitely shows the advantage of TVC... Hope MKK2s or MKK3s get TVC... r they gettin'em?

[MIGleader]

Wow, what channels do you get?

anyhow, those are just tricks to show off. They have little value in real combat. The main advantage of TVC is a tighter turn radius, higher angles of attack, and better ability to evade missles.

The mkk2 is an attacker, and will probably never have tvc. mkk3 is cancelled.

[ahho]

Originally Posted by MIGleader

Wow, what channels do you get?

anyhow, those are just tricks to show off. They have little value in real combat. The main advantage of TVC is a tighter turn radius, higher angles of attack, and better ability to evade missles.

The mkk2 is an attacker, and will probably never have tvc. mkk3 is cancelled.

Just wondering, why was mkk3 cancelled (i thought mkk2 was also canceled)???

was it because the j-11 upgrade was enough for an air superiority role and cutting cost??

[Sabertooth05]

Hi MIGleader, the channel is called Times Now... a news channel.
By the way forgot to tell ya guys... The second part, to be telecast nextweek, contains BVR training.... ;-)

[MIGleader]

Originally Posted by ahho

Just wondering, why was mkk3 cancelled (i thought mkk2 was also canceled)???

was it because the j-11 upgrade was enough for an air superiority role and cutting cost??

Apparently the PLAAF was looking for superior attack capability in the original MKK and MKK2, but did not find it. Something about the radar being too old. PLus, the saspan-E could not guide bombs unless the plane was facing down vertically.

IMO, the PLAAF shouldnt have cancelled the MKK3, but what is done is done.
The mkk3 was supposed to feature a new Phazotron Zhuk-MS radar, with 190km against planes and 300km againt ships. Now that is impressive.

I guess this cancellation must be what prompted the russians to try to offer su-35, but with no success.

[sumdud]

I don't know about the radar, but I am sure that when the Su-30MKK was out as set by the deadline, MKK was still unable to deliver most of its AGMs since the Sanpan pod was still being made. TV munitons can be dropped, but not laser ones, unless the plane flips over and uses its IRST. The IRST probably was better being on the bottom though, since the MKK was primarily a strike plane.

And of course, the incoming of JH-7, using abundant Chinese weapons, didn't help the MKK either.