China Flanker thread

[crobato]

Its too blurry or lack high resolution detail to make out the missile, or the J-11BS vs. Su-30MKK characteristics.

[Deino]

Originally Posted by crobato

Its too blurry or lack high resolution detail to make out the missile, or the J-11BS vs. Su-30MKK characteristics.

Hmmm ... I'm not sure and therefore tried to enlarge and sharpen them.
Iin the firts picture we can clearly see the grey corners of the tail and strange nose-marking suggesting a Chinese Flanker - also it looks yellow but that could be due to lighting conditions and also if the radome is black ???. Quite strange it seems as the wing has one additional pylon.
For the second picture I would say it has the larger squared fins (IMO) ... so are both aircraft the same or not ???

Cheers, Deino

[crobato]

Corner patches on the elevators are also found in the MKK, but not in the Su-27SK, so having the dark corner patches can either mean MKK or J-11. If the wing has one additional pylon it can be an MKK but who knows if the J-11BS has been modified as well. Yellow color would lean it to a brand new J-11 and so will a black nose. The MKK's rear fins are not larger than that of the UBK, just squared off. The two seater tail fins are larger than the single seater's in general so an indication of size on that part only means two seater but which two seater?

[Deino]

Originally Posted by crobato

Corner patches on the elevators are also found in the MKK, but not in the Su-27SK, so having the dark corner patches can either mean MKK or J-11. If the wing has one additional pylon it can be an MKK but who knows if the J-11BS has been modified as well. Yellow color would lean it to a brand new J-11 and so will a black nose. The MKK's rear fins are not larger than that of the UBK, just squared off. The two seater tail fins are larger than the single seater's in general so an indication of size on that part only means two seater but which two seater ?

That's the most interesting thing ... besides that strange missile (maybe a Kh-59 ???)

Thanks for that ... never noticed that the MKK also had these darker squares; I thought it's a typical feature onyl found on China-produced J-11.

Regarding the height of both two-seater I'm not sure - have to check some drawings - ... I agree that the UB's tail is also higher than a SK's tail, but as the MKK is actually a hybrid-type with many features from the Su-27M it has - in contrast to the Indian MKI - the taller + squared M's tail.


Deino

[crobato]

The squared tail of the MKK seems to give the impression that its taller than the tail of the UBK or the MKI, but in reality, looking at the side drawings, they're the same height as the clipped fins of the other two seaters. The MKI also has the corner patches, but they seem to have a lighter color than that of the J-11s. I suspect these patches are a kind of aerial signal receiver.

[Deino]

Originally Posted by crobato

The squared tail of the MKK seems to give the impression that its taller than the tail of the UBK or the MKI, but in reality, looking at the side drawings, they're the same height as the clipped fins of the other two seaters. The MKI also has the corner patches, but they seem to have a lighter color than that of the J-11s. I suspect these patches are a kind of aerial signal receiver.

Just had some time to do a comparison ... You are right with the height, but otherwise I didn't know that there are so many changes !

Deino

[challenge]

what is maximum range of type-1473 radar?
according to back issue of air international,max. tange of SU-27SK's N-1001 radar is 165km. tracking range 80km.
for the F-15A 185km.
and why is when western source usually provide both search and tracking range for the soviet airborne radar, while never mention tracking range for US make radar.?
Is tracking range refering to illumination range?

[crobato]

Allegedly the range is about 160km (some say up to 180km). I don't know if this is tracking range or not, I think this is search distance, while tracking range may depend on the RCS of the target. My presumption is that the tracking range is between 80 to 120km depending on the RCS of popular fighters.

[RedMercury]

I find all these range quotes to be rather difficult to compare, considering they depend on at least two and probably more variables: what the target RCS is and what the miss rate per unit time is. For tracking, this gets even more blurred. What exactly do you mean by tracking? As in, to what accuracy and confidence?

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by challenge

what is maximum range of type-1473 radar?
according to back issue of air international,max. tange of SU-27SK's N-1001 radar is 165km. tracking range 80km.
for the F-15A 185km.
and why is when western source usually provide both search and tracking range for the soviet airborne radar, while never mention tracking range for US make radar.?
Is tracking range refering to illumination range?

150 km vs 3 sqm targets according to the J-10 avionics developer guy. For su-27sk, search range is generally for searching much larger targets I think. We do have detection range for modern western fighters. For example, APG-77 is said to be able to track 1 m^2 targets at 170 to 190 km.

[PrOeLiTeZ]

This was what I always presume it to be the tracking range is roughly half of the max range of radar, for a RCS of <5m^2 such as a J-7.

[tphuang]

Also, some fresh news from HKB, aerospace daily. This is news from SAC, looks like it's about the naval J-11 or J-11BS

日前，备受人们关注的新研项目飞鸡顺利通过公司评审组评审，交付试飞站，这标志着这个型号飞鸡研制生产取得 了重大进展。
自8月下旬新型号飞鸡正式投入总装生产以来，在技术协调问题较多，工作条件简陋，质量要求高的情况下，总装 厂领导班子打破常规，攻坚克难，着力提高生产能力，在装配技术，实物质量上下功夫，不仅使每日工作内容逐步 增加，而且产品质量也得到了保证。在新研飞鸡总装中，厂里成立现场工作团队，由工艺，调度，工段，维护，检 验等部门抽调专人负责研制生产。组织员工两班倒，计划按小时排，能提前1分钟决不耽误60秒。 。。

It talks about a new plane finishing the review and is delivered to the flight test station. This is a huge progress for this type of plane. The plane was first assembled in the end of August. They had to do a lot of tests to prepare it for flight test.

[tphuang]

from avic1 on J-11B, well sort of, news from SAC
http://www.avic1.com.cn/chinese/xwzx...20080104_1.htm
Basically, the importance of this article is that it mentions J-11B finally successfully completed the certification review in 2007 and the engine it uses (WS-10A) passed design certification in Dec 2005. It mentions a bunch of other stuff, but in general, just another confirmation that J-11B is now in service.

团结协作 创新篇章

http://www.avic1.com.cn　　2008/01/04


　　55载雪雨风霜，凝结成不朽的航空精神。一航沈阳所和一航动力所的广大干部职工，始终把国家利益、事业 使命放在第一位，坚定同心协力的一盘棋思想，使重点工程实现了飞机和发动机研制的同步突破，取得了引进、消 化、吸收、再创新的同步发展，树立了飞机和发动机协同发展的典范。

当配装国产发动机的重点型号飞机成功首飞，标志着中国一航“航空报国、自主创新”又一丰硕成果诞生。该型发 动机从其立项研制到定型，每个阶段无不贯穿着飞发一体化、飞发协同的设计思想，是一航动力所、一航沈阳所等 厂所共同研发、攻关的结果。

该发动机为全新设计的核心机，共采用百余种新材料和新工艺，新研的几十项配套成品需要大量零部件试验、累计 试车、高空模拟试验和试飞验证考核，而且严重缺少飞机设计资料，其研制难度之高、技术风险之大前所未有，道 道难关摆在总师系统面前。面对困难与挑战，飞机、发动机型号总师单位——一航沈阳所与一航动力所没有退缩， 勇往直前。

2005 年12月，该型发动机通过了设计定型审查。2007年，配装该发动机的重点型号飞机顺利完成定型审查。一航 沈阳所与一航动力所携手并肩、共谱蓝天理想，解决了一个个重大技术难题，攻克了一道道技术难关。研发过程中 ，飞机型号总设计师组织精兵强将进行专题论证，对技术风险进行预测，并制定有效规避风险的工程研制方案。两 所组成了联合小组深入部队考察、调研。双方联合提出建议开展“科研试飞、定型试飞”，逐步推进，最终达到协 同发展。

飞机总设计师系统和发动机总设计师系统虽然隶属于不同的科研单位，但在中国一航统一领导下，始终能够以大集 团战略为先，以行业大局为重，“无边界管理、无缝隙链接，通力合作”，把目光锁定在提高飞机的整体作战效能 上，锁定在飞机和发动机的协同发展上。从化解风险的顶层决策、可行性论证、飞发匹配方案设计、 到 “瓶颈”技术问题处理，总师系统充分地沟通，有效地指挥，积极地协调。

一航沈阳所和一航动力所从创新组织管理模式入手，针对多型号、多任务下的项目协调、人力、物力、财力资源配 备和供给等项目之间平衡的矛盾，积极推进项目管理，实行组织职能管理和项目管理相结合的矩阵式管理运行模式 ，同时大力推进知识管理。通过实行项目管理和知识管理，实现了资源共享，提高了工作效率，员工的综合能力得 到锻炼，有效地促进了型号任务的完成。一航沈阳所初步构建了基于仿真的数字化设计体系，探索出成熟的基于数 字化的飞机设计流程。一航动力所也初步构建了发动机设计体系。这两个体系实现了设计理念、设计思想的一致性 、同步性，符合飞机设计和发动机设计协同发展的内在要求，相辅相成，相得益彰，形成合力，确保了型号研制进 度和研制质量。

技术创新作为飞机设计和发动机设计的主旋律，体现在专业设计的每一个方面。重点型号飞机在国内率先建立了第 三代战斗机的材料体系, 新研综合航电武器系统极大提高了超视距空战能力，实现了机体、动力和武器的综合集成设计等14项功能，填补 了国内空白。发动机的设计采用了大量的先进部件技术，其中多项填补国内空白，上百项新工艺、新材料的应用， 使发动机材料技术和制作技术实现了一系列重大突破。技术创新的同步效应显著，使飞机和发动机研制水平达到前 所未有的新高度，有力地推动了飞机整体研制水平提升。

一航沈阳所和一航动力所的专业技术人员，凝聚在航空报国的旗帜下，大力弘扬激情进取、志在超越的航空人精神 ，以高度的责任感和强烈的使命感，精诚团结，和谐合作，在较短时间内完成了方案论证、成品技术协调、飞发联 合试验、现场技术支持任务。为了进一步提高飞机整体平台的性能水平，实现发动机和飞机先进技术的完美结合， 全体参研人员不辞辛苦，对设计方案进行了适应性修改。面对设计研制中的技术难点和系统故障，专业技术人员盯 现场，盯数据，盯进度。他们强强联手，集智攻关，克难攻坚，为保进度、保节点、保质量付出了艰 辛的努力。

面对新的一年，一航沈阳所坚持激情进取、志在超越的创新发展之路，用创新打造中国战斗机新品牌，谱写中国航 空人更加辉煌的交响乐章。

[sumdud]

All right, guys, very helpful comments.
But this thread has become very long and hard to follow, so here comes the continuation:

China Flanker Thread II

Great disscussion gents! But this thread is closed!