China Flanker thread

[renmin]

About 76 Su-30s from russia are currently in active survice today with the PLAAF. The PRC purchased up to 200 of these strike fighters from russia. these aircraft are armed with 17,600 POUNDS ON 12 HARDPOINTS,30 MM CANNON, I/R AND RADAR HOMING AIR TO AIR MISSILES, R-73, R-77, PL-10, PL12,LASER GUIDED BOMBS, and AS-17 KRYPTON ANTI-RADAR MISSILE (KH-31). China also plans to equip their su-30s with Chinese made nuclear weapons (i dont see how) and C-801 anti-ship cruise missiles. The PLA SU-30 MKK is equipped with the Tikhomirov NIIP N001VE radar which can range up to 90-110 km in counter-air mode, 70-80km against ground targets and 200-250 km against large ships. The MKK2 version is possibly equipped with the Phazotron Zhuk-M-S which has a 140km in counter-air mode, and 300km against large ships. The SU-30 can be equipped with the Kupol M400 side-looking radar pod that can control up to 10 fighters.The SU-30 is equipped with an extensive electronics suite including the OLS-30 IRST (Infrared Search and Track) system that has a 80-100km range.

(it will be nice too if someone can get some pictures in here, I dont know how)

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by renmin

About 76 Su-30s from russia are currently in active survice today with the PLAAF. The PRC purchased up to 200 of these strike fighters from russia. these aircraft are armed with 17,600 POUNDS ON 12 HARDPOINTS,30 MM CANNON, I/R AND RADAR HOMING AIR TO AIR MISSILES, R-73, R-77, PL-10, PL12,LASER GUIDED BOMBS, and AS-17 KRYPTON ANTI-RADAR MISSILE (KH-31). China also plans to equip their su-30s with Chinese made nuclear weapons (i dont see how) and C-801 anti-ship cruise missiles. The PLA SU-30 MKK is equipped with the Tikhomirov NIIP N001VE radar which can range up to 90-110 km in counter-air mode, 70-80km against ground targets and 200-250 km against large ships. The MKK2 version is possibly equipped with the Phazotron Zhuk-M-S which has a 140km in counter-air mode, and 300km against large ships. The SU-30 can be equipped with the Kupol M400 side-looking radar pod that can control up to 10 fighters.The SU-30 is equipped with an extensive electronics suite including the OLS-30 IRST (Infrared Search and Track) system that has a 80-100km range.

(it will be nice too if someone can get some pictures in here, I dont know how)

The 24 su-30mk2s are also su-30s. Although China did loose one in an accident. I'm not sure if that ever got replaced.

The kupol m400 is only equipped on su-30mkk2.

Mk3 is the one that supposed uses Zhuk-MSE, but China is definitely not purchasing it. Not when the much superior su-35bm is offered. I've always pondered why China did not take the Pero antenna upgrade.

[MIGleader]

the su-30, really, is not an interesting fighter. what i am interested in is what china is going to replace it with. none of chinas new generation aircraft seem to be as capable as the mkk. i wonder why china did not buy more...100 is hardly enough. the mkk3 seemd liek a great fighter too, especially the panda radar. what more is tht china does not appear to be develloping a replacement at the moment either. i thin pondering the su-30 replacement would be a more interesting thread.

now, the mkk2 does not have the zhuk ms. it merely has a modified version of the mkks radar designed to fire the kh-31 and have SLAR fighter intercom system.

whats good is that the mkks and mkk2s can soon be arealy refueled!!! this allows them a range of 4000km with two refuels there, allowing the planes to hit guam.

[adeptitus]

IMO the Su-27 is a good platform. With modifications, it can make a decent strike aircraft (Su-30), carrier based interceptor (Su-33), or even fighter-bomber (Su-34). It has large internal fuel capacity and very good range too.

I think a lot of criticisms on its capability is due to inferior/downgraded export variants. I think everyone here knows Russia did not sell China its best radar or weapons suite.

Due to the arms embargo, PLAAF's import selection was very limited in the 1990's - prolly down to choosing between MiG-29, MiG-31, and Su-27. Between the 3, I think Su-27 was the best choice. The MiG-29 from that era had pretty short range and fared badly in air combat, and the MiG-31's sales record is very poor. The Su-27/Su-30 has been an export success and has many countries involved in upgrade programs.

If the PLAAF had favored domestic developments (J-10?), you could say the J-11 was a stop-gap measure, somewhat like ROCAF's acquisition of the IDF against PLAAF's J-8's.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by MIGleader

the su-30, really, is not an interesting fighter. what i am interested in is what china is going to replace it with. none of chinas new generation aircraft seem to be as capable as the mkk. i wonder why china did not buy more...100 is hardly enough. the mkk3 seemd liek a great fighter too, especially the panda radar. what more is tht china does not appear to be develloping a replacement at the moment either. i thin pondering the su-30 replacement would be a more interesting thread.

now, the mkk2 does not have the zhuk ms. it merely has a modified version of the mkks radar designed to fire the kh-31 and have SLAR fighter intercom system.

whats good is that the mkks and mkk2s can soon be arealy refueled!!! this allows them a range of 4000km with two refuels there, allowing the planes to hit guam.

Mkk3 isn't getting the panda radar. Panda is a radar upgrade that can be performed on N-001VEP. I do have to correct one more thing.
N-001VE is the radar used on J-11A that supports R-77 and multiple engagement. N-001VEP is the radar on mkk that added the ability to fire kh-31 and drop LGBs. N-001VEP modified is the one on mkk2 that added the ability to fire the anti-shipping missile. The reason that China is not geting mkk seems to be the development of indigenous programs. JH-7A can do a lot of things that mkk can do at a much cheaper price. J-10 is just a better air superiority fighter, especially with the 3D TVC engine. J-11's performance can probably match that of su-30mkk at a much lower cost.

I don't think the restriction on Chinese export from Russia is as heavy as some people think. It was quite tight in the beginning with the original flankers, but then it loosened up after 2002 (it seemed like). Especially now, the Russians seemed to be quite desperate that they are offering China pretty much everything that they have.

[Superior China]

Here are some pictures!

[Superior China]

[crobato]

Personally I have problems about the alleged Su-30MK2 crash that happened in March 2004. First the accident is said to have occured in Changsha base in Guangzhou. That is not where the the Su-30MK2s are based that which is with the 4th Division PLANAF near the East China sea. Changsha is the location of the 18th Division's MKKs, and faces the South Seas area. I think the accident involved is that of an 18th Division MKK.

The simple reason why China has stopped buying MKKs and MK2s for now is that China feels they have already something better with J-11B, JH-7A and J-10A, along with a number of Russian flops that somewhat dimmed the Chinese interest, like the delay on the Kh-59MK and Zhuk MSE radar, problems on the engines, need for better support and service, lack of integration of domestic weapons, and lateness of accessories like targeting pods. Some of the functions of the MKK can also be done with the H-6H armed with YJ-63 missiles. Russia needs to step up what they plan to offer to China and I suspect the Su-35BN is one of them. Me personally I believe that China may be currently in a negotiation phase with new Su-30s, probably with the improved radar (Zhuk MSE or Panda) and AL-31FM-1 engines. However take this as coming out from my instincts, and not from an authoritative source.

[Sea Dog]

Originally Posted by tphuang

I don't think the restriction on Chinese export from Russia is as heavy as some people think. It was quite tight in the beginning with the original flankers, but then it loosened up after 2002 (it seemed like). Especially now, the Russians seemed to be quite desperate that they are offering China pretty much everything that they have.

I have to agree here with tphuang. There was a time that I thought the Russians would be unwilling to sell the Su-33 Naval Flanker to PLAN. But it looks like they are interested in selling that variant with all the goodies that go with it.

I think China's development of JH-7 will prove to be an overall replacement of Su-30, that is if the design proves to be reliable and can fulfill it's missions properly.

[renmin]

Iv never heard of such a crash. can somebody fill me in? What caused it? any casualties?

[Wingman]

It was reported by Kanwa, some Taiwanese news company. There was even a picture to go with that but I can't find it again. It's a picture of an Su-30MKK wreckage among some bushes and some Chinese officials examining it. More info (or rumours) here
http://*********************.com/ind...howtopic=40847

Although the pic is quite convincing, Kanwa is usually the only news agency that reports certain news items, no one else, so their credibility isn't that great. Some speculate they even get their info from Chinese military defence forums

[MIGleader]

Originally Posted by Sea Dog

I have to agree here with tphuang. There was a time that I thought the Russians would be unwilling to sell the Su-33 Naval Flanker to PLAN. But it looks like they are interested in selling that variant with all the goodies that go with it.

I think China's development of JH-7 will prove to be an overall replacement of Su-30, that is if the design proves to be reliable and can fulfill it's missions properly.

it's because sukhoi was desperate to keep its su-33 line open. with no other customers following Amiral kutznesov, they knew it was only a matter of time before the highly potent aircraft fell victim to financial problems. so they decided to make an improved varient and market it with vigor. perhaps sukhoi hopes that china will like the side by side seatin format of the su-33kub, tempting su-32 or 34 purchases in the future.

jh-7 might replace mkk in the ground attack role, but not the air superiority mode. the mkks, after all, are still the most capable fighters in the plaaf as well. perhaps china does not see a need for such a fighter, or j-xx is supposed to fufill that role(although i doubt it could have extensive a2g abilities if it has an internal weapons bay)

[crobato]

Originally Posted by Wingman

It was reported by Kanwa, some Taiwanese news company. There was even a picture to go with that but I can't find it again. It's a picture of an Su-30MKK wreckage among some bushes and some Chinese officials examining it. More info (or rumours) here
http://*********************.com/ind...howtopic=40847

I've seen so called Su-27/30 crashes but it turns out these are parts of J-8II and J-7 wreckage.

And KANWA seems a bit off. The first time heard of this rumor was not in the fall of 2004, but in the spring of 2004 to be more precise around March. There is a record of forum postings in the Keymags AFM forum to prove this. If the accident only happened around the fall---months later after I first heard of this alleged rumor---then that is rumor mongering BS.

The forum posting alleges that the accident happened in the Changsha base, which is not where the MK2s went but where the 18th Division MKKs are stationed. Unless said MK2 is not the PLANAF MK2s but an 18th Division MKK converted to the MK2 standard by electronics upgrades.

March is usually the time for accidents to occur because that month usually have exercises going on. A March accident usually is connected with exercises and the MK2 then would still be in their first deliveries and would not have participated in such.

[Wingman]

Oh, I think I found it again. Here.
http://secretchina.com/news/gb/artic.../9/80418p.html

The pic is here. There's no way to tell if it's a Su-27, Su-30MKK or MK2...



It crashed right at the airport...

[MIGleader]

its an mkk. you can tell from the humped back.

wow, that looks like a really nasty crash, but not something that can be repaired using refabricated old parts and some new parts. interesting thing is that the aircraft is in the russian air force paint scheme, not the plaaf one. theres no telling if this is actually a chiense crash.